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Šis referendums ir bezjēdzīgs, jo likums nepilsoņiem atļauj pretendēt uz LR pavalstniecību. Tāda pavalstniecības "piešķiršana" faktiski būtu tās uzspiešana, kas ir pretrunā cilvēktiesībām. Bez tam LR pavalstniekiem ir jāzina valsts valoda, ko prasa LR Satversme, kā arī jāapņemas būt lojālam šai valstij, kas tāpat paredz valodas zināšanu, jo tīša valsts valodas nemācīšanās vai nelietošana ir nelojalitātes pazīme. Man vispār smiekli nāk par visiem šeit izteiktajiem argumentiem šī referenduma labā. Par tāda referendum ierosināšanas mēģinājumu iniciatorus faktiski vajadzētu sodīt kā huligānus jeb kārtības traucētājus.

Andža02.10.2012 12:01

1. To pašu kads vaŗeja pateikt par referendu "par izstašanas no PSRS".
" Šis referendums ir bezjēdzīgs, jo PSRS ir brīvu republiku apvienojums."
2. "Bez tam LR pavalstniekiem ir jāzina valsts valoda, ko prasa LR Satversme, kā arī jāapņemas būt lojālam šai valstij, kas tāpat paredz valodas zināšanu, jo tīša valsts valodas nemācīšanās vai nelietošana ir nelojalitātes pazīme"
Par to Satversmē nav pateikts. Nevajāg lūdzu klāji melot.
Pēc jūsu vārdiem pilsonību jāatņem visiem Amerikas latviešiem un visiem kuri aizbrauca stradat Īrijā TP, Vienotības un TB/LNNK/VL! bezkaunīga neprofesionalisma deļ

Anonīms05.10.2012 12:09

Piekrītu Andža. Ir jābeidz vērtēt cilvēku tiesības atkarībā no tā, kurā ģimenē Latvijā dzimuši un cik grib un var dzīvot laimīgi. Tiesībām ir jābūt nediskriminējošām. Citādi mēs agri vai vēlu sāksim pilsoņu karu - pašu pilsoņu "tīrīšanu", jo bailēm lielas acis un cilvēku VISA VEIDA iznīcināšana ir vienīgā tradicionāli pareizā metode. Būs vai nebūs pilsoņu skaita pieaugums - tas pagaidām nav bijis atkarīgs no tautas un tauta - jebkurš cilvēks Latvijā, arī Saeimā sēdošie un runājošie, - tiek nīcināta NO IEKŠAS.

I. Kažokas raksti man vienkārši riebjas. Vai tad viņa nesaprot, kas būs,ja visiem civilokupantiem piešķirs pilsonību. Pie tam parakstu vākšanas otrā kārta izmaksā vismaz 150 tūkstošu latu, bet referendums 2 miljoni latu. Vai tad Kazoka nesaprot, ak šādiem bezjēdžigiem referendumiem nav ko budžeta naudu tērēt. Tas pie kā novedusi naturalizācija, tagad jau ur redzams - balso par prokremlisko saskaņas centru. Drīzāk jau jāpieņem likums, ka par nelojalitāti pilsonību vajag anulēt. Arī tajā raidījumā, kuru vadīja Dzintris Kolāts Kažoka aizstāvēja referenduma norises nepieciešamību. Tomēr aptauja rādīja, ka gandrīz 90 % uzskata, ka nedrīkst puieļaut šo antikonstitucionālo referendumu.

Heh02.10.2012 12:19

Ivariņ, tas ir demokrātija..ja skumsti par "komunistsko demokratiju" kur ir viena taisnība viisiem, tad Kubā un Korejas Tautas Demokrātiskā Republikā tevi gaidā

No tās paša Hičensa runas: "And every time you silence someone you make yourself a prisoner of your own action because you deny yourself the right to hear something."
Ar to arī, manuprāt, viss ir pateikts.

Paldies, tiešām jēdzīgs raksts. To labi papildina Hičensa episkā uzstāšanās par Free Speech: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyoOfRog1EM

Publicētie CVK atzinumi atgādina Brežņeva laiku padomju zinātniskās psihiatrijas atziņas, ka ikviens, kurš mēdz kritizēt padomju valsts iekārtu a priori ir psihiski slims.

Par iespējamiem juridiskās tehnikas dabas trūkumiem tautas nobalsošanā iesniedzamos likumprojektos, ir jāatzīmē, ka tas būtu ārkārtīgi rets gadījums, kad likumprojektā ietvertā tiesību norma nevar tikt reāli piemērotā. Priekš tam arī pastāv tiesību normu interpretācijas paņēmieni un tiesību talākveidošanas metodes.
Iebildumi piem. par pārējas noteikumu neesamību iesniegtajos likumprojektos nav pamatoti, jo ja pārējās noteikumu trūkums ir tik būtisks, ka aizskar pamattiesības, tad pieņemto tautas nobalsošanā likumu var apstrīdēt Satversmes tiesā.

Bez tam, ja jau tauta nobalsotu par labu kādam likumprojektam, tad Ministru Kabinets vienmēr var likuma ietvaros, pat ja šajā likuma nav ietvērts tāds deleģējums MK-am, izdot MK Noteikumus, kuri noregulēs kādus tehniskās dabas likuma piemērošanas aspektus. Atsevišķos gadījumos, ja nepieciešamība pēc skaidrības par tehniskās dabas jautājumu noregulējumu ir objektīvi izriet no likuma jēgas, tad tas būtu nevis MK tiesības, bet arī pienākums noregulēt šādus momentus.

CVK lapā http://web.cvk.lv/pub/public/30422.html tagad ir pieejami visi iesniegtie atzinumi.
Jāatzīst, ka šoreiz tiešām ir ielikts pilnīgi jauna jēga vārdiem 'pilnīgi izstrādāts'. Un, lasot šos atzinumus, mani nepamet pārliecība, ka visiem rakstītājiem ir bijusi pārliecība līdz kādam rezultātam jānonāk, bet ceļu gan katrs ir izvēlējies savu.
Mans "favorīts" ir M.Mita rakstītais:
"2. Jēdziens „pilnīgi izstrādāts" Satversmes 78.panta izpratnē ir interpretējams tādejādi, ka likumprojektam ir ne tikai jāatbilst formālajām prasībām attiecībā uz tā saturu un formu, bet tas nedrīkst nonākt pretrunā ar Satversmes normām, tai skaitā pamatnormām, kas ietvertas Satversmes 1.-4., 6. un 77. pantos. Tas nedrīkst nonākt pretrunā arī ar neaizskaramo Satversmes kodolu, kas pastāv konstitucionāla principa formā."
Un īpaši man patīk pēdējais teikums...

Labi, ka sākumā jau ir pieteikts, ka šīs ir EMOCIONĀLAS pārdomas par tēmu. Kaut arī dažos aspektos var piekrist autorei, tomēr man kā juristam gribētos nedaudz atspēkot dažus apgalvojums:
1) Tas ka līdz šim konkrētais Satversmes pants nav piemērots pienācīgi (vai interpretēts kļūdīgi), vēl nenozīmē, ka tiesību normas piemērošanas praksi nav iespējams mainīt. Tiesiskās paļāvības princips nenozīmē, ka indivīds (vai sabiedrība) var bezgalīgi paļauties uz to, ka iestāde konsekventi turpinās kļūdīties. Ja kļūda piemērošanā ir konstatēta, tad iestādes PIENĀKUMS ir šo praksi mainīt un turpmāk nekļūdīties.
2) Par 'par pilnībā izstrādātu' likumprojektu kā pilsoņu iniciatīvu jau ir debatēts iepriekš. Tajā skaitā, kad pilsoņi devās uz vēlēšanu iecirkņiem jautājumā par valodu. Vairāki juristi jau tad aprādīja, ka arī tas likumprojekts nebija 'pilnībā izstrādāts', jo vispār neparedzēja, piemēram, spēkā stāšanās kārtību. Pieņemot, ka tauta kaut kādu iemeslu dēļ būtu nobalsojusi PAR šo divvalodības iniciatīvu - vai bija kaut kur noteikts kad un kādā veidā visai valsts pārvaldei jāsāk lietot otrā valsts valoda? No kura brīža visi dokumenti jāizdod 2 valodās, utt? Nē! Nekā tāda tur nebija un šāda nepilnīga likuma pieņemšana varētu novest pie masveida likumpārkāpumiem (un tiesiskā nihilisma) jau nākamajā rītā pēc šāda tautas nobalsošanā pieņemta likuma stāšanās spēkā.
3) No augstākminētā piemēra redzams, ka iestādei laikus redzot, ka likumprojekts nav pilnībā izstrādāts un tas var novest pie nopietnām tiesiskām problēmām, ir jābūt mehānismam, kas šādu iniciatīvu aptur. Vēl vairāk - tam netērējot valsts budžeta līdzekļus papildus parakstu vākšanai vai paša referenduma sasaukšanai. Autore gan norāda, ka līdz šim esejas kā likumprojekti nav iesniegti. Bet, sekojot autores domu gājienam un pieņemot, ka nākotnē var būt dažādas citas iniciatīvas (tai skaitā tādas, kas mums patiktu) - pieņemsim, ja vienā dienā kāds iesniedz eseju un nevis likumprojektu. Vai arī tad nevajadzētu būt nekādam mehānismam, kas pasaka - tas nav likumprojekts, bet gan eseja? Manuprāt šādam mehānismam IR jābūt. Cita lieta - iespējams, ka CVK vai kādām citām atbildīgām iestādēm ir jāizstrādā SKAIDRI UN NEPĀRPROTAMI kritēriji vai vadlīnijas, pēc kurām ik vienas iniciatīvas autors var pārliecināties, vai viņu sagatavotais likumprojekts ir 'pilnībā izstrādāts' vai nav. Šādu kritēriju vai vadlīniju esamība padarītu ikviena iniciatīvas autora darbu vieglāku un saprotamāku. Tad mēs varētu arī atsaukties uz tiesisko paļāvību u.c. principiem.
4) Nevaru piekrist autores apgalvojumam caur tautas nobalsošanu rosinātam likumprojektam nevar izvirzīt 'pilnībā izstrādāta' likumprojekta prasības tādēļ, ka arī pašiem deputātiem Saeimā šādas prasības neizvirza. Te nu ir jāaprāda, ka ir būtiska atšķirība procedūrā KĀ tiek apstiprināta un stājas spēkā viena viena vai otra likumdošanas iniciatīva. Atšķirībā no Saeimas deputātu likumdošanas iniciatīvām, kas tiek vētītas neskaitāmās komisijās un pieņemta Saeimā 3 (!!!) lasījumos, tautas nobalsošanā nodotais likumprojekts visai tautai ir jāpieņem ar pirmo reizi un tas stājas spēkā tāds kāds tas ir - pilnīgs vai nepilnīgs. Nevienam, pilnīgi nevienam - ne Saeimai ne kādam citam nav tiesības ne ko pielabot, ne ko pagrozīt. Un ar to arī ir pamatojamas atšķirīgas likumprojekta gatavības/izstrādātības izvirzāmās prasības.
...5) bet kas attiecas uz argumentiem - vai tas ir vai nav LV interesēs un vai tas ir konstitucionāli vai nē - tur nu gan piekrītu autorei - ir lietas, kuras ir jāļauj izlemt tautai vai Satversmes tiesai. Tai nu gan nevajadzētu būt CVK kompetencei par šādām lietām lemt!

Iveta Kažoka30.09.2012 23:37

Paldies par pārdomāto komentāru! Tikai dažas replikas.
Par 1) būšu ļoti izbrīnīta, ja CVK pateiks, ka iepriekš iestāde ir kļūdījusies normu piemērošanā. Ziniet, "kļūdīšanās" 20 gadu garumā vairs nav kļūda, bet attiecīgās likuma normas piemērošanas tradīcija, ko nevar tā vienkārši lauzt. Šeit gan ir viens plašāks moments, ko vēlos iztirzāt, sākot " ķidāt" KTK pilno atzinumu: vai tiešām ir taisnīgi apgalvot, ka iestāde/amatpersona ir kļūdījusies, ja kaut kādas likuma normas interpretācija ir MAINĪJUSIES?
2) jā, tā ir taisnība. "Pilnīgi izstrādāts" ar jēgu "uzreiz realizējams" kā interpretācija parādījās brīdī, kad referendums tika apstrīdēts ST. Nepilsoņu referenduma kontekstā šis jebkurā gadījumā ŠĀDĀ NOZĪMĒ ir pilnīgi izstrādāts, jo brīdis, kad nepilsoņi "pārtop" par pilsoņiem (ja vien nav ar īpašu iesniegumu izvēlējušies palikt par nepilsoņiem) ir 2014.gads.
3) "pieņemsim, ja vienā dienā kāds iesniedz eseju un nevis likumprojektu. Vai arī tad nevajadzētu būt nekādam mehānismam, kas pasaka - tas nav likumprojekts, bet gan eseja? " Ja tā tiešām būtu eseja, domāju, ka neviens saprātīgi neiebilstu pret to, ka CVK nerīko otro parakstu vākšanas kārtu,l argumentējot, ka tas nemaz nav likumprojekts. "iespējams, ka CVK vai kādām citām atbildīgām iestādēm ir jāizstrādā SKAIDRI UN NEPĀRPROTAMI kritēriji vai vadlīnijas, pēc kurām ik vienas iniciatīvas autors var pārliecināties, vai viņu sagatavotais likumprojekts ir 'pilnībā izstrādāts' vai nav." Jā. Un ja CVK nopietni apsver iespēju piemērot uz vēlētāju iesniegtajiem likumprojektiem augstus likumdošanas tehnikas standartus, tad arī būtu jābūt iespējai vērsties CVK ar uzziņas pieprasījumu par kāda likumprojekta " pilnīgu izstrādātību" vēl pirms sākts vākt parakstus.
4) " Nevaru piekrist autores apgalvojumam caur tautas nobalsošanu rosinātam likumprojektam nevar izvirzīt 'pilnībā izstrādāta' likumprojekta prasības tādēļ, ka arī pašiem deputātiem Saeimā šādas prasības neizvirza. "
Nezinu. Ja mēs loģiski turpinām jūsu domu gaitu, tad Saeima arī nedrīkstētu "raut cauri" likumprojektus vienas dienas laikā - ar steidzamības mehānismu un iespēju vienā dienā likumprojektu nobalsot visos lasījumos. Bet šobrīd tāda iespēja ir, un tiek reāli arī darbināta.
Tas pats attiecas uz priekšlikumiem trešajam lasījumam - tur nav trīs lasījumi, tur ir tikai viens balsojums dažkārt par tik pat konceptuāliem jautājumiem kā nepilsoņu iniciatīvā.
Man joprojām šķiet, ka sliktas kvalitātes likumprojekts vienkārši ir labs arguments, lai par attiecīgo likumprojektu nobalsotu pret (Saeimā vai referendumā)/vai neietu uz otro parakstu vākšanas kārtu.

Nezinu, kad autorei reiz atvērsies acis un viņa ieraudzīs patiesību par tiesiskuma koalīciju. Šai koalīcijai tiesiskums ir tikai lozungs vēlētāju balsu zvejošanai, bet praksē viņi vadās no politiskās lietderības principa. Tiesas šos jautājumus savukārt risina pēc telefontiesību principa (padomju mantojums, kā daudz kas mūsu tieslietu sistēmā)- respektīvi, politiskā viedokļa Tieslietu ministrijā vai premjera birojā.

Abstrahejoties no pilnigi visa, un runajot tikai un vienigi par demokratiju - protams, jebkadas iniciativas "blokesana" ir neadekvata. Bet nemot vera esoso situaciju, un so demokratisko izpausmju izmaksas, iniciativu filtresana skiet visai logisks solis. Ja 1/10 parakstu nesavaksanas gadijuma izskerdetie naudas lidzekli tiktu piedziti no iniciativas pieteicejiem, jeb negativa referenduma iznakuma gadijuma-no sis 1/10 dalas, kas referemdumu inicieja -manis pec parakstu vaksanas un tautas nobalsosanas varetu notikt kaut katru nedelu. Bet ja sabiedribas vairakumam ir regulari jamaksa par mazakuma untumiem, tad sada "demokratija" klust absurda. Ir jabut kaut kadam mehanismam kas piespiestu iniciativu virzitajus vispirms 3x pardomat, vai vispar ir reali iegut sabiedribas vairakuma atbalstu savai idejai, pirms skerdet VISU nodoklu maksataju naudu.

Pats apstāklis, ka tiesību norma iegūst "jaunu" saturu nav nekas neparasts. Interpretācija, jauni argumenti utml., piemēram, tiesu praksē nereti noved pie t.s. "judikatūras maiņas". Vēl pirms mēneša tādā pašā prasībā varēja uzvarēt, bet tagad viedoklis ir mainījies un identiskā gadījumā lemts zaudēt. Tāda tā jurisprudence ir.
Cits jautājums vai ir saprātīgi šo iniciatīvu nobremzēt šajā posmā. Argumentus juridiskus sameklēt abas puses spētu labu labos. Taču politiskā, sociālā skatījumā... Labāk būtu ļaut visam ritēt savu gaitu.

Tas pēc būtības ir Satversmes kodols (lasi - juristu politprostitūcija) jaunās skaņās, kad jau gadiem spēkā esošu normu nostabilizējies un vispāratzīts juridiskais vērtējums tiek mainīts atbilstoši politiķu vēlmēm. Печально все это...

Paldies par vērtīgo lasāmvielu! Par mehānismu, lai klaji antikonstitucionāli likumi neiet uz referendumiem - varbūt, ka ir jāpamācās no Eiropas pilsoņu iniciatīvas noteikumiem, kur - pirms sākas parakstu vākšana - Eiropas Komisija vērtē, vai iniciatīva nav klajā pretrunā ar ES pamatvērtībām un ES pamatlīgumiem, un ka par konkrēto jautājumu Eiropas Komisijai ir monopola tiesības nākt ar likumdošanas priekšlikumu. Pagaidām, cik man zināms, nav tikusi reģistrēta viena iniciatīva, kas pieprasa pamazām izbeigt atomenerģijas izmantošanu, jo tas būtu pretrunā ar ES pamatlīgumos iekļauto (ES atomenerģiju izmanto).

Iveta Kažoka26.09.2012 17:48

Var. Bet tad tas noteikti ir jāizdara ar atsevišķu regulējumu

Tas ir ļoti apsveicami, ka ir kāds, kas beidzot ir pamanījis šo zīmīgo tendenci "demokrātijas un tiesiskuma attīstībā" Latvijā.

Brīnišķīgi, ka Tu uzrakstīji šo rakstu, jo pašlaik patiešām izskatās, ka mūsu juridisko zinātņu eksperti ir gatavi riskēt ar tiesiskās paļāvības un vienlīdzības principu neievērošanu. Ja CVK nobalsos pret otrās parakstu vākšanas kārtas organizēšanu, tad es vēl naivi turpināšu cerēt uz Latvijas tiesu sistēmas spēju atcelt šo lēmumu, lai netiktu samazināts liberālās demokrātijas koeficients Latvijā.

Ir bijusi viena reize, kad arī man kā galīgam nejuristam bija lielas aizdomas par tautas nobalsošanai izvirzītā jautājuma atbilstību Satversmes garam. Tas bija 2008.gada 23.augusta referendums (ko tolaik tēlaini sauca "referendums par cilvēka cienīgām pensijām" - Sabiedrības Citai Politikai iniciatīva). Un šaubas radīja, protams, Satversmes 73.pants ("Tautas nobalsošanai nevar nodot budžetu un likumus par aizņēmumiem, nodokļiem, muitām, dzelzceļa tarifiem..."). 1920-to gadu sākumā, kad tapa Satversme, nebija īpaši aktuāls jautājums par pensiju aprēķināšanas kārtību - jo vairumam cilvēku pensijas vienkārši nepienācās. Savukārt mūsdienās, it īpaši depopulācijas apstākļos, pensijas kļūst par ne mazāk jūtīgu jautājumu kā pirms 100 un vairāk gadiem (pirms autofurgonu ēras) bija dzelzceļa tarifi, kuri Satversmē ir minēti.

Šajā sakarībā rodas bažas par to, vai Satversmes tēvi pirms 90 gadiem nebūtu uzskatījuši arī sociālā budžeta sadali par budžetam radniecīgu lietu, par ko nav pareizi noturēt referendumus. No otras puses, 2008.g. vasaras "trekno gadu" izskaņā varēja gadīties, ka populistisks lozungs (panākt sociālā budžeta "pārpalikuma" izmaksu pensionāriem nevis izmantošanu pamatbudžeta lāpīšanai) tiešām gūst sabiedrības vairuma atbalstu. Par laimi, mums nenācās šo eksperimentu izbaudīt līdz galam nepilnu mēnesi pirms Lehman Brothers bankrota... Tautas nobalsošanas dienā neatnāca kvorums. Bet nekāda estētiska gandarījuma par šo gadījumu man nav. Man nešķiet īsti pareizi, ja tiem vēlētājiem, kuri Satversmes 73.panta iedvesmā nevēlas budžeta pārdales jautājumus pārcirst kā Gordija mezglu, ir referenduma dienā jāzīlē kafijas biezumos - savāksies kvorums vai nesavāksies? Jāiet balsot vai nav jāiet balsot? Jo "maksimālas neveiksmes" gadījumā tautas nobalsošanā var gadīties, ka arī nedaudz vairāk kā ceturtā daļa no iepriekšējās Saeimas vēlēšanās nobalsojušo skaita (t.i. vismaz puse no puses) var uzspiest savu gribu pārējām trim ceturtdaļām, ja šīs trīs ceturtdaļas nav pietiekoši aktīvas vai labi organizētas.

Līdz ar to, man gribētos argumentēt, ka reizēm veselais saprāts prasa, lai šādas tautas nobalsošanas tiktu apturētas jau iedīglī. Kādos gadījumos tas jādara - par to ir jālemj juristiem. Bet allaž paļauties uz vēlētāju vairuma nekļūdīgo politisko intuīciju (vai varbūt - vienkārši cilvēcisko slinkumu) varētu nebūt saprātīgi. Tādēļ jautājums - kā šo veselo saprātu pārvērst konkrētās procedūrās?

Iveta Kažoka26.09.2012 17:52

"Līdz ar to, man gribētos argumentēt, ka reizēm veselais saprāts prasa, lai šādas tautas nobalsošanas tiktu apturētas jau iedīglī. "
Neesmu pārliecināta. Analoģisku likumu varēja pieņemt arī Saeima, turklāt bez jebkādiem kvoruma ierobežojumiem. Pilsoņu kopumam jau tā ir iniciatīvu ierosināšanai/apstiprināšanai uzlikts augstāks standarts nekā parlamentam. Ja likums izrādītos antikonstitucionāls - abos gadījumos to par tādu varētu atzīt Satversmes tiesa. Nevajag paļauties ne uz Saeimas, ne tautas saprātu - sistēma jābūvē tā, lai kļūdas/muļķības varētu labot. Man šķiet, ka mūsu sistēma ir pietiekami droša pret nelāgiem pavērsieniem referendumos - un šādos apstākļos lai pilsoņi, ja vēlas, paši mācās pieņemt lēmumus. Arī Šveicē ne jau uzreiz pilsoņi iemācījās balsot pret darba nedēļas ilguma vai nodokļa samazināšanu vai pensiju paaugstināšanu.

Jānis Steps01.10.2012 22:25

Katrā ziņā ne par kādu demokrātiju runāt te nav iespējams. Viennozīmīgi skaidrs, ka varas turētājiem ir bail no tautas!
Tas arī viss, ne vairāk un ne mazāk.

saprāta balss02.10.2012 10:00

Nu re, beidzot atklāti un oficiāli izrādās, ka kādam ir tāds "veselais saprāts", kurš vērtējams augstāk nekā tautas vara, tautas griba, satversme un demokrātijas principi. Biedrs Staļins aplaudē. Un kurš būs tas guru, kurš izlems kādus jautājumus dumjā tauta nedrīkst lemt?